HAVE YOU DIED TO SIN?
T. A. McMahon:
Thanks, Gary. You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage all who desire to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Dave, as you know, we have been discussing things related to the Christian life and which you really underscore in your book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, things which you rarely hear in Christian circles, but are what Christianity is all about. For example: the meaning of the cross in our lives, the crucified life, denying self, being dead to sin and dying daily. Would you give those who are listening for the first time a general idea of what these aspects of Christianity mean?
Dave Hunt:
Well Tom, you mentioned several things, the meaning of the cross, the crucified life, dying to self; dying daily. Well, it just goes back to what the scriptures say. Paul said, “I am crucified with Christ,” (Galatians:2:20
), or (2 Corinthians:5:17
), “we thus judge if one dies for all then we are all dead.” The example we have given in the past about Barabas. Barabas could say, Christ died in my place, but it simply set him free to live life as he wanted to, that’s criminal really. That’s not what Christianity is about and the critic, skeptic, atheist could in fact, complain and say it’s not just that the innocent die in the place of the guilty, that’s not justice and that’s not Christianity. We die in Christ. When I believe that Christ died for me I acknowledge that when He took my place He was punished for my sins and that that’s the punishment that I deserve, eternal separation from God, therefore, I have accepted His death as my death. Now, if I have accepted His death as my death then, as Paul said, I am crucified with Him and it is no more I but Christ who lives in me. By God’s wonderful grace, He accepted the penalty and not only in His grace but in His justice because Christ paid the penalty and so He rose from the dead and that demonstrated the acceptance by God of the penalty He paid. So now, we have new life, we have given up our old life, we have given up life as we would live it in the old man, as the scripture identifies it, in ourselves, what our ambition had been and our sinful desires, and so forth our self-centered[ness], you mentioned denying self, our self-centered orientation—which is self preservation—is our number one priority. You hand a tray of cookies to children and you just see it. They all grab for the largest one. We are all looking out for number one, although they have seminars to teach how to do that now which is unnecessary. So, we have given up life as we would live it, we recognize that we are sinners, we are condemned, we are depraved, we are corrupt and we want a new life, and Christ comes to live that new life in us.
T. A. McMahon:
So we are to be dead to those things.
Dave Hunt:
Right. By faith—it’s not that I try to stifle my natural desires, not that I turn over a new leaf and I try somehow, in my own strength to overcome the evil in my nature, but I accept the fact that Christ paid the penalty. I have died in Him and by faith I have a new life. The resurrection life of Christ which is only for dead people; you have to be dead to qualify for resurrection life and the life Christ gives is the resurrection life that He brought forth from the tomb, having paid the penalty for our sins.
T. A. McMahon:
Dave, I am sure many of our listeners out there are thinking about application here in their own lives. But, last week at the end of the program we talked about why so many Christians don’t experience this power that Christ had.You talk about the resurrected life in Christ. What would be some reasons? They may be thinking themselves, this is what I want but I keep falling short here.
Dave Hunt:
Well, the basic reason is lack of faith. The just shall live by faith, we walk by faith not by sight. I have to believe God’s promises. I have to believe that I am crucified with Christ. It hasn’t happened to my flesh yet, to my body, so the scripture says, the flesh, that’s what I am by nature, not just my body but what the scripture calls, again, the old man lusts against the Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit who has come to live within. My heart is deceitful. David said, “Search me, O God, know my heart, try me, know my thoughts, see if there be any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.” So, I can, maybe, even think that I really want God’s will and maybe what I really want is God to bless my will. So, it takes some understanding of scripture, the Word of God is living, powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, it pierces even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit and it discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. So, as I read the scriptures I get a little more insight into the deviousness of my own character and that helps me to walk by faith, helps me to desire that which is of God. But basically, it’s a walk of faith. I’m trusting Him, I’m trusting His Word and no matter what doubts come along I simply rest in Him.
T. A. McMahon:
Dave, when you talk about something or you lay out faith, sometimes, I know you know this because we have been looking at this for a long time, but you get a little anxious, a little nervous when you even use the term—wonderful, biblical term—because of the ideas of faith out there. I think about some of our listeners who are saying oh you mean I just have to have faith? When I can just conjure up enough faith—that’s not what you are talking about, but that’s what many who are evangelizing (so called), over the airways and so on.
Dave Hunt:
That’s a good point, Tom. Faith is not a force, faith is not some power, [and] faith is not positive thinking or possibility thinking. In other words, a power of my mind so that if I can really believe something, that will make it happen. No, that is not what faith is. Jesus, in Mark 11 said, “Have faith in God.” So faith is absolute total trust in God and in His promises. Faith puts me in touch with Him and allows me to experience what He will do for me. Faith is not a power of mind that I exert by positive thinking and that causes good things to happen. That is the flesh once again, it’s an occult idea, of course, and it is absolutely contrary to the Word of God. Never does the Word of God give me to believe in positive thinking. Positive thinking, of course, is a meaningless term when it comes to morals, to truth, to God and to the walk of faith. If you want to talk about positive, there are chemicals, chemical bonding in chemistry there is a positive and a negative and in electronics, a magnetism and so forth. But positive and negative has nothing to do with truth, it has nothing to do with righteousness, it has nothing to do with holiness and living the Christian life. That is by faith in Him. Now, you could say, wow, Jesus is very negative because He said except you repent you will all perish. Jesus said that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and the temple would be destroyed and so forth. Did He bring that about by—
T. A. McMahon:
A self-fulfilling prophecy?
Dave Hunt:
Yes, His negative confession? There are some people who would want to put out of the Bible anything they call negative. No, it is true. Whether it is true or false, whether it is biblical or not biblical, that is the issue, not this positive and negative. Now some people aren’t accepting what I am saying but please think about it, find out. I remember, Tom, in fact, being on a radio program—this was many years ago, shortly after The Seduction of Christianity, came out and I was being interviewed by the owner of the station who was the talk show host and he was going to embarrass me. In fact, that’s what he said—well, I am going to embarrass you now. I said, go ahead. He said you say in this book, Seduction of Christianity, you are opposed to positive thinking. Why, the Bible is the greatest possibility manual that ever was, possibility thinking and positive thinking manual that ever there was, what do you say to that? And, I said to him, I don’t want to embarrass you.And he said, Go ahead. I said, Well, look it up in your concordance, you won’t find the word, positive, you won’t find the word, thinking and you certainly won’t find the phrase, positive thinking. Does it seem a bit odd to you that what you call the greatest positive thinking manual in the world doesn’t even know this concept? Just think about that a little bit, whoever is listening out there and you have been programmed or persuaded to think that if you could just think positively—No, if you could just trust God and believe His truth and believe His Word.
T. A. McMahon:
Dave, the guy tried to embarrass you that was a no-no. Now, we are good friends so I am not going to try to embarrass you but I’m going to take you to task.
Dave Hunt:
Oh Tom, I’m not so sure about that.
T. A. McMahon:
Okay, well, let’s see here. We’ve been talking about the crucified life, denying self, dying daily; well, I’m going to ask a question here. What is necessary of all of these things that we have been talking about? What do you have to know, what do you have to understand about these things to really accept the gospel. For example, you write in your book An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, you say, consenting to be dead and willing for Christ to be their life was not only the Colossian’s basis for victory but the essential gospel they must embrace, otherwise, there could be no salvation. Now are you pushing the envelope a little bit here?
Dave Hunt:
Well Tom, the gospel, of course, in its simplest form: Paul said, “I’m not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation.” Then, what is the gospel? Well, the gospel is that Christ died for my sins, was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. So, if I really believe that and accept that, that’s going to bring some truths into my heart and mind. I may not understand it fully at the time, but what you were quoting there in Colossians 3, there is no question that he says—and I think we discussed this last time or maybe before—verse 5 I think it is he says, “Mortify your members.” “No,” he says, “Mortify, therefore, your members.” Verse 12: “Put on therefore, as the elect of God…”—so we get a list of what we shouldn’t be, what we should be, and now he is telling them it is because—the reason why I am to live this way—and I am living out the gospel now—the reason why I am to live this way is because—he begins by saying “Since you then be risen with Christ, seek those things that are above for Christ sitteth at the right hand of God.” Now, you didn’t understand that when you became a Christian, but to really be saved and to be able to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling and to live this Christian life, there are some things that you mature into and you begin to understand. It’s not just by—we are not puppets and God now, begins to pull some new strings, so we begin to do new things but it comes to us by an understanding. I can’t believe, I can’t trust God for what I don’t understand He is willing to do for me. So, He says, seek those things that are above where Christ sits at the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above not on things on this earth for you are dead. Your life is hid with Christ in God. Now, I didn’t understand that when I opened my heart to Christ and He came to live in me. But if I am really saved I will understand this as he makes it clear to me and I can’t be saved without knowing this, without understanding it, unless I die right after I am saved because I will bear the fruit that comes of the new birth. So, if I am really born of God, I will believe this and I will rejoice in this. The people that are saying, I just can’t live the Christian life, I mean, I just have such struggles and problems, I feel so bad about it, it bothers me. Those people are on the right track. They are like Paul in Romans 7 who said “O wretched man that I am! who will deliver me? The good that I want to do, I can’t do it; the evil that I don’t want to do, that’s what I do. Who will deliver me from this body of sin?” He says, “I thank God for Jesus Christ.” But it’s the person who can live in sin and who doesn’t seem to have a conscience about this, who says, Well, I went forward at this crusade or whatever, I got saved twenty years ago and I know I am saved because I made this decision but I can live like I please. I have real concerns for that person as to whether they are really saved or not. So, I think that was what I was trying to say.
T. A. McMahon:
Well, the reason that I wanted to underscore it, in this program and in our heart and in our ministry, we want people to understand the gospel, we want them to receive the gospel. And, you told me one time, and I thought this was really important, that in the presentation of the gospel you don’t want to go beyond anything the Lord presents. One example would be the thief on the cross. How much did he understand? Well we don’t really know, we don’t know his background and that but we do know that when he made this confession to Jesus, Jesus said, this day you will be with me in paradise. So, his understanding, his heart, surely Jesus could look upon his heart and so on. But, as you just read that you say, hey, he didn’t really understand the crucified life although here’s a man on the cross, interestingly. But he didn’t really understand these things that we are talking about and I don’t want to err on this program by saying, hey look, here is what you have to understand and what you have to believe. We are talking about the gospel but not just what you must believe to be saved. We are talking about the gospel as it applies to whoever’s life is in Christ, right?
Dave Hunt:
Well, Romans 5 deals with that: “If, when we were rebels we were saved by his death, how much more shall we be saved by his life.” So, having accepted Christ’s death in my place and having been given new life in Christ, now I begin to experience His life and I begin to mature. My faith becomes deeper and Christ begins to reveal himself to me through His Word, I am understanding more and the saving life of Christ wow, I didn’t know anything about that when I believed in Jesus as my Savior, who died for my sins, but He has come to live His life in me. Going back to (2 Corinthians:5:17
), we didn’t finish the verse. “We thus judge if one dies for all then we are all dead and he died for all that they which live.” This is the purpose of it—I didn’t understand that when I got saved. That they which live should no longer live unto themselves but unto Him, who died for them and rose again. So now, Jesus said, If you love me you will keep my commandments, my love begins to grow for Christ as I begin to understand more fully what He did for me, that God—He didn’t have to do this—and I began to see more what a wretched, miserable creature I am. It’s not that I have to think I am somebody; otherwise God wouldn’t die for me. My love grows the more I realize what a miserable, unworthy creature I am and how deep He had to reach, how far down He had to go to become my Savior, to take my place on the cross, I began to love Him more and more and more and that motivates me. We love Him because He first loved us. So, the more I know of His love, the more I experience of His love, the more I understand of it through His Word, the more I grow in my desire, I want to please Him. And so, that has a powerful transforming affect on my life as well. Its the person who got saved, so He says, but then does nothing about it, doesn’t read the Word of God, doesn’t fellowship with people out there who also love the Lord. You are not going to find a perfect fellowship, there are so many people that I have met even recently, they are just meeting at home alone, because we can’t find anyone that we can agree with or we can get along with although they may not say it in so many words. No, we need the fellowship of other believers and we begin this walk of faith and we desire to please our Lord and we serve Him. But the person who says he got saved and then he is just living his life like Barabas, I have real problems with whether that person really knows Christ and the gospel or not.
T. A. McMahon:
Dave, do you think—we only have about a minute and a half left here—but do you think that part of the problem here is, how we go about evangelizing? For example, if I were to inform somebody unsaved or people that I was talking to about the resurrected life in Christ, about dying; at least they would have a better idea of what would be expected of them. This is not works salvation, but this is at least an understanding that we are trying to have them understand what Christ did, how He paid for their sins and so on, but also, what your life in Christ ought to be according to the scriptures.
Dave Hunt:
I think Tom; there is a lot of emotionalism. We build people up emotionally because we want them to raise their hand, stand up, [and] come forward. I find often, the gospel is not adequately explained. Now, we are not going to explain the whole Christian life and they think that that burden is being put on them, but they need to understand their sin, their unworthiness and the love of God, that Christ would come and die for them and that this is the only way the penalty could be paid. They need to understand that in order to be saved, I believe, initially.
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